Add Assassins to Odyssey : Poll

[WelshSteel]

For me, it's not about voting out another class but voting for a much more manageable balancing act and to give wars a purpose

"To give Warrs purpose".

Warrs used to have a great role back when Mir first started, KR's and getting to them were crazy hard due to classes not having any of the standard meta aoe clear skills that we're used too. To the future then Wiz + Tao got many new skills that added easy AoE + mobility, even for Tao and how exactly is Warrior evolving, no extra mobility really, not 1 ranged attack still, on most servers he gets no slowing skills, all it does is try to burst and it's the most predictable playstyle to watch ever (Wiz +Tao can just point and click anyone with barely any predictive movement).

I tried saying in a thread that Warriors are the ones out of place, not Sins, gameplay wise being strictly melee and lacking mobility+cc they are inferior to the ranged classes but a portion of the Mir community are tradionalists who care less about gameplay.

 

[LightBringer]

I personally love Assassins, but we always drove the idea of 3 heroes for our second server.

My big issue is getting them to feel like their own class.

They are always compared to warriors, because well they are both melee.

Warriors are 'all rounders' so never really have that focal point for their kit, they can clear reasonably well, tank well and single target very well (with the likes of FS/TDB etc) so Assassins single target needs to compete with that (as an assassin you trade survivability for this) and it just ends up being a numbers game for single target damage.

(You replied while I was typing)
I wouldn't agree warriors are the problem, as Mir has very much moved from group play oh taking hours to get to a KR to single play for the majority (as there aren't the numbers to always organize group hunts everywhere, and more and more people just solo hunt), and because the big groups that are left are very clicky so you wont get in unless you've been with them for a long time.

 

[WelshSteel]

@LightBringer well all rounders is....an ok term to use in PvE but I disagree with PvP, the gameplan is predictable, it's a point and click flinch game from ranged, they even have slowing options like Curse and frost crunch so I don't personally get why some people are passionate still about Warrior other than the look of the character and weapons which I feel are their only highlight.

Like to me it would make sense if there was some "Beserker" activate where they take increased damage and don't flinch for a bit or a throwing axe straight line skill that slows + something related to mobilty....I just find the Warrior playstyle pathetic, I'm tired of it being bullied, the last server I played the only reason they were any good was because there were plenty of players so the zerg of many therefore limits movement options and only then Warrior gets to shine, on his own all small scale PvP I'm convinced it needs a playstyle upgrade.

Edit - Also think of it like this, it's not fun or engaging to fight a Warrior, you either maneveur around it easily/flinch and cc it to irrelevance (cheap thrills) or they are impossible to kill / have a pocket luck+5+++ weapon where you can't do anything. Then 1 on 1 melee fights likely go to the better kitted. Sucky

 

[LightBringer]

@LightBringer well all rounders is....an ok term to use in PvE but I disagree with PvP, the gameplan is predictable, it's a point and click flinch game from ranged, they even have slowing options like Curse and frost crunch so I don't personally get why some people are passionate still about Warrior other than the look of the character and weapons which I feel are their only highlight.


Like to me it would make sense if there was some "Beserker" activate where they take increased damage and don't flinch for a bit or a throwing axe straight line skill that slows + something related to mobilty....I just find the Warrior playstyle pathetic, I'm tired of it being bullied, the last server I played the only reason they were any good was because there were plenty of players so the zerg of many therefore limits movement options and only then Warrior gets to shine, on his own all small scale PvP I'm convinced it needs a playstyle upgrade.

I really do feel Mir's gameplay would take a step up if it replaced Warrior with Sin and add a reworked Warrior in the future as the armor and weapons are iconic + good looking.

Edit - Also think of it like this, it's not fun or engaging to fight a Warrior, you either maneveur around it easily/flinch and cc it to irrelevance (cheap thrills) or they are impossible to kill / have a pocket luck+5+++ weapon where you can't do anything. Then 1 on 1 melee fights likely go to the better kitted. Sucky

The whole PvP for Mir is predictable; the players have been doing it for 20years.
You are talking like its next gen gaming, it's nostalgic gaming, I don't go play final fantasy 6-9 and expect to have mechanics suddenly appear different in it, I would play the latest final fantasy (amazing example I know)
I keep re-iterating, if people change the core of the game, it's no longer Mir; you may as well just create a game from the ground up with better graphics; people play Mir for nostalgia, but with some new features and such so the content isn't stale.

The same reason people are passionate about the other classes, its the class they enjoy.
For example I personally don't get why people enjoy wizards, I always play them, then their playstyle makes me want to quit (I only roll them at start of servers to farm)

It's skill differences with warriors, 'expert' warriors can smash the majority of wizards and taoists, as there are varying skill caps on each class in essence.
Warriors start low but have a high ceiling (knowing when to BA/SD etc etc).
Wizards run around throwing spells like lunatics and putting MS up when it goes down, but again it's knowing when to drop the big spells (blizzard MS etc) to ruin your target.
Taoists, well taoists are assholes :|

 

[Lilcooldoode]

Taoists, well taoists are assholes :|

This is a LOMCN approved statement

 

[WelshSteel]

@LightBringer

I do believe Warrior has the problem of being skill dependant as you said, I also believe it's also too kit dependant, some owners limit the effectiveness of bene's but Warrior's are desperate to amplify their burst...which is one of their only strengths, imo it's just too much of a hard life and instead of only seeing a handful of good warriors I'd rather see a good bunch of Sins naturally causing a Havoc and making those annoying ranged classes work.

Gotta be honest I'm a little bit dissapointed, the mechanics is plenty fine enough in Mir for a bit of shine by an owner but I'm seeing ths default to the nostalgia side of the fence, either giving up on better PvP or just simply "happy enough" to release a nice server for good memories sake.

Honestly, I'm telling you owners now, only 3/4 classes to look at, take the skills and pvp seriously and you'll satsify the younger and more commited userbase far more easily and the users and the mechanics will promote your game for you!

 

[ibby]

For people talking about balancing issues, warriors have always had their place on every single server, they have that hp pool and somewhat tankiness to them, always using warriors to charge into pvp pushes, door blocks, and they’re great for boss tanking with taos..

assassins aren’t the biggest problem for balancing tbh it’s more people who don’t play the class don’t want to go against them

also giving assassins their own niche it’s kind of already there, they just need a few changes so they don’t get outscaled late game and become a 2 hit class....e.g. Warriors is known for the burst tank on mir, but have always been able to achieve speed 8 and hit extremely quick, problem with assassins on many servers is that they share the same attack speed which is always the biggest problem due to Dc gap and rage which is insane.

 

[WelshSteel]

@ibby "Burst Tank", I find that they either fufill this role just about well enough gold, p2w and lvling commitment but if those 3 conditions aren't met they're just sponges for punishment bearing in mind a Tank role is not about just being high hp and tough, it's about agro draw and via skills taking damage for people.

Attack speed is obviously a lot of fun for Warriors + I love alternative builds for classes so I feel that shouldn't be nerfed to allow Sins to have a greater feel of niche.

Atm I only feel with owners sticking with old Warrior mechanics that Sins need to take some skills from Archer's (and transform the Sin to Rogue/Thief), the current Archers that are implemented on Mir servers only cause unnecessary havoc anyway. I feel it needs to be more in this direction as I believe single/small team servers don't have the time/drive to do what you need them to do and grant a melee world where both Warrior and Sin are happy co-existing with each other.

Both Sin and Warr are the hardest to play and gear, there will be bad melee pvp'ers and good melee pvper's, I don't see the community and owners as a whole ever being happy with the current/old mechanics that Warrior's and Sin's have right now.

Edit - but don't get me wrong, everyone should do everything in their power to get Sins involved, they are part of the future of Mir and going backwards is wrong and will hurt Mir now, and in the long run.

 

[StormHero]

waffles

How many keyboards do you go through a day?

 

[Far]

@ibby

Edit - but don't get me wrong, everyone should do everything in their power to get Sins involved, they are part of the future of Mir and going backwards is wrong and will hurt Mir now, and in the long run.

I feel the same way for those lonely archers which never get included in servers

 

[ibby]

I feel the same way for those lonely archers which never get included in servers

tbf, no game can be perfectly balanced for pvp side unless your allthe same stats for good, but it’s always gnna be changing, u can have 3 class or 6, it’s still gnna be the same imo, just need more testing in between the skills and how you want pvp to be

like for me I’m a sin main and always love it because I can outplay, also go for 1 weak target or over extended and go for the kill and back out...

if I was a wiz.. it’s all about controlling the area you fight in and getting people to play around you etc etc.

I enjoy sin because of the playstyle the class offers... however I’d love to see a new revamped side of the class and changing it up with the skills

 

[WelshSteel]

How many keyboards do you go through a day?

My keyboards from Germany and will out last us all.

All I see from your attempts to counter me with "waffle" = lacking mmo experience.

@ibby revamp Sin with traps /kappa

 

[StormHero]

My keyboards from Germany and will out last us all.

All I see from your attempts to counter me with "waffle" = lacking mmo experience.

@ibby revamp Sin with traps /kappa

I just shorted it down to waffle so i didnt quote a massive block of txt ^^

 

[LightBringer]

For the sin side.

Rather than less just make them a new class like a rogue
One of the big things to me is capping attacks speed for warriors, they also need a source of defense without being a weaker version if warrior.
Agility seems to go either doggo or op

black and white
What would you guys do to make them work?


On a side note one of the biggest shitters with single target, pvp shouldn't be about getting 2 shot and losing your kit

 

[WelshSteel]

@StormHero



@LightBringer not in favour of reducing Warrior attack speed cause I feel it's an avenue for fun, I actually liked old Mir's take on it with weak DC'd gale jewels which provides them with that cool X factor in PvE.

I dunno how you're going to work not having a melee feeling rewarded IE not allowing them to burst down people who are floating around them for how much time and effort they've invested into kit unless you make them on similar levels to Wizards and Tao's where they need less quality kit to be effective with a slight rework to the melee's (bringing some utilities to them other than damage).

Also rng Agility stat is just bad design and to make it work in it's current state is too hard, other games employ skills with short duration evade windows and this is the right course of action for a pvp game, for example Sin activates skill and gets evasion 999/magic resist 999 for a short period.

 

[LOMValkyrie]

3 class all the way only idiots do 6 class servers

 

[LightBringer]

The problem is, there is always some form of underlying problem.

I appreciate peoples ideas, but thats all they are is single ideas, no core re-design concept, which is why I didn't originally add them in, as for all 4 classes to have justifiable reason to be on a server, one needs to be re-designed.

Can't just throw a couple of new skills at something and expect it to change the world, it wont.
The skills will either be to OP or too crap to make a difference, most skills act as 'enhancers' to the fundementals of the class.

Sins Concept makes no sense in Mir if you look at their design

Fatal Sword, Haste and DS all work as the start of the theme for Sins, but then the skills just take a turn into shitsville

[core
"Agi buff" - for Agility that doesn't do much
"Fire burst" really sins dont need a KB as they need to be more agile
"Flash Dash" just always feels clunky to use (I have redone frames for it) but just doesn't feel right
"HEavenly sword" - No
"Trap" - No
"PoisonSword" - should be a passive (gives you natural +PA)
]

Its this core that needs sorting out, that and their means for mitigating damage, you cant just throw lesser AC/MAC at them,

Then you get to some of the interesting ones
MoonLight / SwiftFeet / Shadow Step / MP Eater

On a side note, I did realllly like the aspect of ramped up damage with multiple spells (like zircons bloom skills)
Use Skill 1, Amps Skill 2, use Skill 2 after , amps 3 then you have your 'final' skill that does more damage.


On the side of their defenses, the only real option without overhauling agility is giving them reasonable HP pools but lower mitigation via items as this way they can survive hits due to hp pool but can't mitigate the damage (Also one amusing thing I always got PMed about new item sets "well this item has 1 agility, so my equivalent should have 1acc" :|)


EDIT:
I also don't have enough experience (or unbiased opinions) to revamp the bad parts and lower down the OP parts of sins.
I either hear it from people who hate sins or people who love them and want to OneShot the world

 

[Ohnozircon]

Ibby's the main one who will be moaning and shouting from the rooftops if sins aren't how he wants them (OP to ****)

 

[WelshSteel]

@Ohnozircon look Zircon-ion, my man Ibby just wants to make Wizards feel pain, I will be with him to the ends of the earth so you shut your hole!

 

[ibby]

Ibby's the main one who will be moaning and shouting from the rooftops if sins aren't how he wants them (OP to ****)

I mean warriors 2 hit me every server and I’m okay with that, I just like going for range as it helps a lot in TF’s

Post automatically merged: Feb 9, 2021

For the sin side.

Rather than less just make them a new class like a rogue
One of the big things to me is capping attacks speed for warriors, they also need a source of defense without being a weaker version if warrior.
Agility seems to go either doggo or op

black and white
What would you guys do to make them work?


On a side note one of the biggest shitters with single target, pvp shouldn't be about getting 2 shot and losing your kit

You could recode agility, I think Jamie did it on his marble server, it got out of hand and was oo to ****, so he changed his agility to a type of damage reduction I can’t remember exactly but it was like a secondary AC, and you would take less damage, and Accuracy was changed the exact same way to counter agility, the more acc you have you pierce through the agility and hurt more instead of having the “miss” factor.

Post automatically merged: Feb 9, 2021

You also could do that with MR as it’s always rng and broke having 30% or w/e chance to completely miss spells

could make MR a secondary amc type stat so e.g. 5 MR could mean 10% reduced magic damage

could open a possibility to add magic penetration gems for wizzies to counter that and force people to build MR too idkjust Suggestions