Class specialisation concept

Legend Of Mir 3 HispaRed

WelshSteel

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A good few servers are coming out with great potential, so I just wanted to speak my mind on a concept which I feel would not only give the players more satsifaction but also give server owners an easy buck.

Class swaps have been notorious in some Lineage 2 private servers, players happily paying around 20 or more euros to change not even their class entirely but just their specialistion (so example would be on Lineage 2 from dreadnaught who is an AoE farmer to a Gladiator for a better single target and 1v1 dueling).

Could a Mir server owner consider implementing what would essentially be a much more polished and expanded version of Jamie's lvl 4 skills, so an easy example would be:

(books for certain skills now have 'Advanced' tag before their name and with red message below them added with lvl requirement "only learnable by xxxx").

Warrior > Berserker
*new skill* (passive) - when HP is reduced to 1 your mana works as a health bar
Lion Roar lvl 4 now has a chance to stun players (increased % chance if health is low).
Shoulderdash lvl 4 has no restriction on the amount of targets pushed back
Rage lvl 4, activating this abilitiy removes the attack speed restriction and additionally provides +4 attack speed
Crosshalfmoon+Halfmoon lvl 4, have no damage penalty from their sides or behind

Warrior > Knight
*new skill* (passive) - can equip a shield (stats+appearence)
Entrapment lvl 4, can now pull players (the pull cannot be resisted but the paralyse can be!)
Flaming Sword lvl 4, deals great damage vs undead and targets under paralyse.
Protection field lvl 4, now provides AMC %+ and on every cast provides a "mage bubble" of protection (or some well done Shield looking lighted thing)
BladeAvalanche lvl 4, slows or freezes mobs and players, resistances apply.

Would be lovely to see new looks for the "advanced" abilities too, including title of your class selection on your sheet and new armor looks.
 
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mir2pion

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Additions like these would be great, even if the aim was just to spice up the game, not necessarily sell it for GG.

*new skill* (passive) - when HP is reduced to 1 your mana works as a health bar
Does that mean if you got hit anytime your HP would go to zero and you would die, if you had any mana (MP), it would work as extended HP? Passive meaning 'always on' if the class was berserker?

Side note on FSword skill - it was pants @lev3 on any server I was playing, last time I remember it had some use (impact) was on official euro. I talk about PvE, not PvP. Maybe on current servers, you need humungous DC that only top players typically have, to make it count for something?

Is it Ancient server I popped on not long ago, that has Warrior, Barbarian and Knight? I always feel plain warrior being superfluous, that it should be replaced by those other two subclasses if the server has them. IMO makes for difficult choices balancing the three, making them distinct enough. I guess plain Warrior is likely pants in such case.
 
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LightBringer

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I have an idea for this if I was ever to do a different server project (I have a lot of ideas)

Where you get "Elite" skills.
Rather than level 4/5.

What Elite Skills are:
You get a quest to unlock your elite skill when you reach the appropriate level.
Tiered at 20/30/36/40/45 (and on going as the level cap goes up).
You will have a minimum of 2 choices for elite skills when you complete the quest (you can only ever have 1 elite skill of each tier).
Generally you will find that they compliment each other

So as a warrior, you will have a defensive set, offensive set and a balanced set.
Generally overall it will benefit a particular playstyle to go down a single lineage (so all offensive/defensive) to be able to maximise the bonus' and what not; however you can mix and match.

Elite Skills level every 5 levels and have a ton of exp to level them up; however there are optional quests to complete to level them up, when you hit the level needed for the next spell level.

It gives the element of class building, without taking away from the Mir feel, but it also allows classes to differentiate, so you have a warrior who can tear through stuff, or a warrior who can tank the world. - it also means grouping you may require a defensive warrior instead of an offensive.
 

WhyJewBanMe

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Fs is the highest multi spell on mir (bar hem usually) fs 260% hem 290%

Due to tdb ignoring stats in good caves F sword is poor in pve, on a bad hit it's way more noticeable.

Example

250ac -250ac
250amc-250 amc

Tdb in 200 dc...hit 220/30 chance of yellow making you hit 300/200 (rough guesses)

Landing a 260% firesword = 520 dmg -250 ac =270 firesword

Obviously its boosted vs yellow but its still far less damaging in pve than TDB

Higher cd
More mp...

0 chance of yellow

I dont use Fire sword in pve on prim unless pk'ing im not educating you im agreeing with you with an explanation as all my boss and sub kills are tdb only+any 45 + cave is TDB only

Catch 22 tho, lower ac/amc and sins ds will need editing, as would tdb dmg due to the other hit..

Pve fire dmg proc a good way to go to buff it maybe, w.o breaking anything else lol
 
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WelshSteel

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So as a warrior, you will have a defensive set, offensive set and a balanced set.
Generally overall it will benefit a particular playstyle to go down a single lineage (so all offensive/defensive) to be able to maximise the bonus' and what not; however you can mix and match.
So you would make a mastery system that you can pay to get reset? your system can work better than class changing because it would be an automatic process.

Well I guess with my system you could theoritically make an NPC to reset to default class and get compensated the skills back in way of 'book tokens tier 1 - x'
 

LightBringer

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So you would make a mastery system that you can pay to get reset? your system can work better than class changing because it would be an automatic process.

Well I guess with my system you could theoretically make an NPC to reset to default class and get compensated the skills back in way of 'book tokens tier 1 - x'
Yeah you can reset the chain to switch out the Elite Skill set.
>But it would reset them all, so if you wanted to keep a certain skill you would need to re-learn it, that is almost the negative thing about resetting, that and the cost.

I also don't like saying new classes when they are the same class just with a few different skills, hence the Elite Skill system (I dont see a wizard, elementalist and Geomancer different if all that separates them is a few different spells).

Your way works as long as its executed well, but no one has executed it well.
I don't like seeing 3 separate 'classes' all have the same level 0 - 30 skills.
If you are making 3 wizard style classes, make one ice, one electric, one fire. Ice is PvP Heavy, Fire is PvE, Electric is Control(pet taming etc) and Balanced PvPE


There are a million ways to approach Class customisation as long as its thought out it can work, but most people just throw extra classes in for the sake of saying they have extra classes B)
 

WelshSteel

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Yeah you can reset the chain to switch out the Elite Skill set.
>But it would reset them all, so if you wanted to keep a certain skill you would need to re-learn it, that is almost the negative thing about resetting, that and the cost.

I also don't like saying new classes when they are the same class just with a few different skills, hence the Elite Skill system (I dont see a wizard, elementalist and Geomancer different if all that separates them is a few different spells).

Your way works as long as its executed well, but no one has executed it well.
I don't like seeing 3 separate 'classes' all have the same level 0 - 30 skills.
If you are making 3 wizard style classes, make one ice, one electric, one fire. Ice is PvP Heavy, Fire is PvE, Electric is Control(pet taming etc) and Balanced PvPE


There are a million ways to approach Class customisation as long as its thought out it can work, but most people just throw extra classes in for the sake of saying they have extra classes B)

Well I'd make Beserker and Knight armor looking different, the Knight would also have this shield thing maybe some are trying to get in from somewhere, so appearences are different and the mechanics of how they play PvP fights would certainly be different, this is normal from a Lineage perspective anyway, it's not different classes your right it's different branches.

I wouldn't like the idea of a Wizard being a hard specialist in only one branch of spells (fire, ice etc), for me it's all about changing their playstyles.
(quick draw ups):
Necromancer: Vampirism lvl 4 > now a MASS target ability, TU lvl 4 > passively changes E-shock to make undead tameable and on successful TU chance to tame that undead mob instead of kill (can only have one undead mob!), Frozen Earth/Ice Storm and Frost Crunch changes related to PvP annoyance and a passive related to being tougher than the average Wiz. (Survival + CC mage)
Light Mage: lvl 4 magic shield > auto attacking an opponent with shield on paralyses opponent for 2 seconds and removes the shield, Mirroring lvl 4 > copies your skills and applies 60% of the damage. lvl 4 thunderbolt > (looks like redfox thunderbolt, awesome!), damage equal to Flame Disruptor, potential to flinch twice as its "2 spells in one", 2x2 skill, chance to summon Mirror image directly behind opponent. (1v1 flinch+murder potential)
Arcanist: Flame spells proc'ing "deadly sh1t", FlameField can be held down but exhausts more and more mana every second, gives massive burn debuff to opponents. Running through firewalls gives moments of invisibilty. (mass damage specialist)
(I would add more to Light+arcanist btw but felt I said enough ;p )

Rather than denying skills of what people know from Mir's basic toolset I think it would be better to approach it to improve current abilities (and get new skills in if your good/lucky/funded/staffed) so that they become the new strength of "your specialistion".

Not sure on your 1st paragraph, it seems you want your playerbase to have a very hard time resetting/changing, it differs a bit I think from me "I'm happy to have them change pretty much on the fly (week or so cooldown though), as long as they pay for the service, win win".
 
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Piff1

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@Bon did this year's ago and other people have tried since. Bon had 4 Sub classes per each class, it was nice to see something different for the first few weeks then it just became to many balancing issue.

Archon / Aesir also did something along these lines, although @WelshSteel i do love some of the concepts your chucking out there with the sub classes giving off X% of higher damage from certain spells.
 

LightBringer

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Well I'd make Beserker and Knight armor looking different, the Knight would also have this shield thing maybe some are trying to get in from somewhere, so appearences are different and the mechanics of how they play PvP fights would certainly be different, this is normal from a Lineage perspective anyway, it's not different classes your right it's different branches.

I wouldn't like the idea of a Wizard being a hard specialist in only one branch of spells (fire, ice etc), for me it's all about changing their playstyles.
(quick draw ups):
Necromancer: Vampirism lvl 4 > now a MASS target ability, TU lvl 4 > passively changes E-shock to make undead tameable and on successful TU chance to tame that undead mob instead of kill (can only have one undead mob!), Frozen Earth/Ice Storm and Frost Crunch changes related to PvP annoyance and a passive related to being tougher than the average Wiz. (Survival + CC mage)
Light Mage: lvl 4 magic shield > auto attacking an opponent with shield on paralyses opponent for 2 seconds and removes the shield, Mirroring lvl 4 > copies your skills and applies 60% of the damage. lvl 4 thunderbolt > (looks like redfox thunderbolt, awesome!), damage equal to Flame Disruptor, potential to flinch twice as its "2 spells in one", 2x2 skill, chance to summon Mirror image directly behind opponent. (1v1 flinch+murder potential)
Arcanist: Flame spells proc'ing "deadly sh1t", FlameField can be held down but exhausts more and more mana every second, gives massive burn debuff to opponents. Running through firewalls gives moments of invisibilty. (mass damage specialist)
(I would add more to Light+arcanist btw but felt I said enough ;p )

Rather than denying skills of what people know from Mir's basic toolset I think it would be better to approach it to improve current abilities (and get new skills in if your good/lucky/funded/staffed) so that they become the new strength of "your specialistion".

Not sure on your 1st paragraph, it seems you want your playerbase to have a very hard time resetting/changing, it differs a bit I think from me "I'm happy to have them change pretty much on the fly (week or so cooldown though), as long as they pay for the service, win win".
With the wizards, I wasn't stating thats what they would be specifically, but when people have stated they have "multi classes" then it turns out its 3 versions of wizards, all with the same spells except a few reskins, it falls flat.

I suppose it would depend on how quick you can regain your skills, but they need some negative impact out of it, so you can't just reset tier 30, or tier 36 elite skill, you have to reset the tree then re-acquire them (that or you have a scaling respect option) *first free *second 1mill *3rd 3mill etc etc
I suppose its kind of the similar concept of a week cooldown (as you need to re-acquire your spells, or can only switch every so often).

I just dont see a point in going ok "I am dps war, then switch to tank, then switch back to dps". so really either way works.


I mean my main issue is my subclass idea could directly conflicted with my elements/status' (similar to holy stats) but with dark - amped poisons etc, fire amps fire spells, ice ice spells.
but they would have a positive/negative impact if stacked too high
so:
Dark + 10 would mean your poisons hit everything around the cursor as well and apply additional degen
but your heals would only be 50% effectiveness (again just examples)

Fire+10 adds scorch + extra damage to firespells but reduces the effects of ice spells.

Again this is all from my horrendous notepad++ document that was created before TPR xD
I think the problem is,
 

WelshSteel

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i do love some of the concepts your chucking out there with the sub classes giving off X% of higher damage from certain spells.
Sub classes! that's what I've been meaning to say, not really class changes! xD @LightBringer

Dark + 10 would mean your poisons hit everything around the cursor as well and apply additional degen
but your heals would only be 50% effectiveness (again just examples)
Yes! such cool concepts out of this potentially, I mean Zircon made the Taoist eventually into a disgusting damage dealer like everyone else but it would of been great to get some holy+++ "I'm a monster at healing but suck at damage" or dark+++ "insta gib, no I don't give a *** bout you dweebs!".

Ye I get what you were saying regarding Wiz :p I would just put a cooldown on the sub class swapping (like once a week, 10-20 euro change pls!) and then I'd give them their skill books depending on what they had originally (organised by tiers) and then they'd have to lvl them to the 3>4 stage which would maybe take a fair bit of time (a bit of a pain in the butt!).
 
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LightBringer

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Sub classes! that's what I've been meaning to say, not really class changes! xD @LightBringer



Yes! such cool concepts out of this potentially, I mean Zircon made the Taoist eventually into a disgusting damage dealer like everyone else but it would of been great to get some holy+++ "I'm a monster at healing but suck at damage" or dark+++ "insta gib, no I don't give a *** bout you dweebs!".

Ye I get what you were saying regarding Wiz :p I would just put a cooldown on the sub class swapping (like once a week, 10-20 euro change pls!) and then I'd give them their skill books depending on what they had originally (organised by tiers) and then they'd have to lvl them to the 3>4 stage which would maybe take a fair bit of time (a bit of a pain in the butt!).
Yeah I think that would be a better idea on the CDs to be fair, makes sense rather than putting people through the same sheet each time.
 

Chalace

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I did a bunch of this stuff using my Gem system for spell modifications. It works well once you get it all set up.
Pretty sure there is info around here somewhere from when I was working on it.

The sub-classes, again are easy to 'do' but hard to differentiate. I think I had 12, or 15(?) thereabouts. Tho, to be honest, it was a struggle to make some of them not seem pointless.

- Both systems were freely interchangeable, i.e you could change your spells and sub-class around whenever you wanted.

--

I think the way people have done it so far just isn't engaging enough. Like you say it was mostly just a re-skin or the limited spells pool divided up, which just didn't really add anything.
 

mir2pion

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I just dont see a point in going ok "I am dps war, then switch to tank, then switch back to dps".
On server with no subclasses, you effectively switch your war btw 'barbarian' and 'knight' simply by having DC (Glass Armour) or AC (xxx Armour) and other such items available.

To make such subclasses meaningful, you would need to do two things: give each subclass significant automatic attribute gaining (DC or AC or AMC or ASpeed etc.) as you gain levels and also make items like Glass armour restricted to Barbarian subclass, similar for AC armour only for Knight etc.

Actually I don't know if any automatic stat increase with levels is relevant in Crystal files, apart from carry weight stat auto gain with levels which has some relevance on both low & high rates). On euro mir I remember checking what I got (one or two DC or AC points and carry weight increase) and was pleased with it, at least up to levels 20s, maybe 30s... but with todays high rate, high stat servers, it lost its point entirely since nobody balances things on their server this way - to tweak that auto stat gaining with levels to keep it relevant in any way (again, apart from carry weight which is overdone, so that before long, you never test its limits), same as nobody changes many other things (like cost in gold of various things to buy & sell, etc, ever).

Ideally, Sin being ASpeed class, no other class should be able to top him when it comes to this chief attribute stat. Say Barbarian shouldn't be able to outdo Sin in AS given equal level and assuming both maximize the stat. And vice versa for DC stat regarding these two classes examples. I said ideally because this might be too restrictive or hard to achieve to set up on server.
 
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LightBringer

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On server with no subclasses, you effectively switch your war btw 'barbarian' and 'knight' simply by having DC (Glass Armour) or AC (xxx Armour) and other such items available.

To make such subclasses meaningful, you would need to do two things: give each subclass significant automatic attribute gaining (DC or AC or AMC or ASpeed etc.) as you gain levels and also make items like Glass armour restricted to Barbarian subclass, similar for AC armour only for Knight etc.

Actually I don't know if any automatic stat increase with levels is relevant in Crystal files, apart from carry weight stat auto gain with levels which has some relevance on both low & high rates). On euro mir I remember checking what I got (one or two DC or AC points and carry weight increase) and was pleased with it, at least up to levels 20s, maybe 30s... but with todays high rate, high stat servers, it lost its point entirely since nobody balances things on their server this way - to tweak that auto stat gaining with levels to keep it relevant in any way (again, apart from carry weight which is overdone, so that before long, you never test its limits), same as nobody changes many other things (like cost in gold of various things to buy & sell, etc, ever).

Ideally, Sin being ASpeed class, no other class should be able to top him when it comes to this chief attribute stat. Say Barbarian shouldn't be able to outdo Sin in AS given equal level and assuming both maximize the stat. And vice versa for DC stat regarding these two classes examples. I said ideally because this might be too restrictive or hard to achieve to set up on server.
With the subclass style approach i would probably only start with 3 heroes.
However one of the big ones would be a passive elite skills defining the class (so for example)

Brute (Passive) - Your basic attacks have a chance to do extra damage, receive % DC from all sources, however you get a % reduced armour from all sources.
Defender (Passive) - You receive 25% more AC/MAC stats from any source (spells, armour etc) but you get 10% reduced DC from all sources

Shield (Active) Gain a flat X-Y AC/MAC when cast
Fury (Active) Gain a flat X-Y DC when cast.


These are basic examples of why you wouldn't go down multiple trees, as what would happen is you would say get Brute, and then shield, shield would be a lot less effective, as if you had defender and shield, Defender would increase the effectiveness of Shield.

They are just example and not real numbers (as it would be based around balance)
 

Hercules

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This whole sub class thing is making me excited I’m looking into it and may look to do something similar, gotta stand out from the crowd right?
 

Piff1

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My Advice to you Herc, steer clear of Sub-classes, Aersir, Archon both was just way out of balance. Especially for your first server.