Is a 3Hero server, a cop out?

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Zed

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Personally, I have seen the fair share of 4 heroes servers (with Sins) and 5 heroes (with Archers)

Is expanding into these classes straight away what can be a cause for server degradation?

I say this as I am working on a 3H server (with the intent to release the other classes as 'expansions' similar to how WoW would do it - as well as allowing anyone with say a level 45 character, create a level 35+ (depending on the level 'cap' etc) of the newly released class.

I feel like I am copping out, but Sins on these files have always been the cause for concern on launch, as they are either dead in the water from launch, or way to strong (as their default setup has built in catch up mechanics, as they were released after the original 3)
Archers just always feel underwhelming as well.

Would you guys entertain a 3 heroes server (obviously as long as the content etc. was all top notch)?
 

Martyn

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What annoys me is sins always pull ahead, because they were put into an existing game, so given catch up skills technically imo...
 

Seanofsmeg

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I don't think only having 3 heroes is a cop out as long as its not the same content. I feel the issue around a lot of servers adding 4 & 5 heroes is classes start to lose their purpose.
 

Pottsy

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As Martyn said, all the classes have been introduced at later stages of the game when the first 3 classes have had years of hard work and dedication put in. Sin undoubtedly has some form of catch-up built into it's skills/item sets and stats.

I think Mir2 Sin is probably the most balanced and unnoticeable, but you can still see the difference until everyone starts meeting up at the late game.

Archer I haven't seen enough of anywhere to have a proper opinion on.

Mir3 Sin completely kills the game. Every skill, every item and every use of set bonuses has been designed to catch up the Sin lol...you can't have a Mir3 Sin without completely overhauling what the class is.
 

Chalace

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While it's true that 5 classes are harder to balance than 3. It's not impossible. And you can certainly make them have their own unique feel.
You have the source to edit them in any way you choose.

I want to be nice here, so let's just go with 'some people don't like change' and that tends to grow exponentially when you're talking about people that don't move on from a 20yr old game. People will always complain, even when everything is great.

Make the server however you want, it's your server, your time.
Having or not having them won't be the cause of people not playing it.
 
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Piff1

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3 Hero's is the way to go imo.

Soon as Sin's / Archer come into a server it's just more balance / crys for the team to deal with. It's literally the downfall to most server's these day's.. Trying to balance 5 characters is just crazyness with tiny teams of 2-3 people.

Also there was never any base to go off on European Mir Official servers as we never seen Archers / Sin's.. So were just going off random Asian Videos / how we feel they should be to balance them.


Also Martyn is correct, they seem to take off like a rocket start game and either coast at end average or end crazy OP.

If you do bother to expand to 4-5 Classes, log on Chronicles and take a look 0-45 how classes work there, i think they got their balance pretty well also they've had the most time to perfect it.
 
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Zed

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What is it with the sin that stands out as catch up mechanics?

I think (from just testing the base files) is their kill speed early levels compared to the other classes.
I did a test of a few hours game play, putting full effort (except archers as they are buggy as hell) and my sin was just clearing so much faster than the other classes.

Possibly to do with doubleslash + attackspeed early on gives them 1 on 1 clears, which most people do until higher level anyway (when you can start luring)
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also thanks all for the replies!

I feel that, the problem with Sins is it makes any non class DC items rarer then the MC/SC equivalents as 2 classes can use it.
From that view do you reckon it would potentailly be better to implement an alternative damage source for sins (as well as utilising their agility a lot more)
 

Alecs

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Three heroes and an archer for Tai is the best option IMO. Every class that came after the original three are crap.
 

Piff1

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It's Sin's obtaining DoubleSlash at such a low level, it just rips **** at level 16 xD but u can't really stop it because mobs hp/defence has to be low then.
 

Chalace

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I feel that, the problem with Sins is it makes any non class DC items rarer then the MC/SC equivalents as 2 classes can use it.
From that view do you reckon it would potentailly be better to implement an alternative damage source for sins (as well as utilising their agility a lot more)
Not entirely sure where you're heading here.
If you are worried about 2 classes sharing DC items, just balance the drop rates accordingly.
 

IceMan

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If you been on koream mir 2. You will sins dont gem or orb dc. They all do a speed and acc.
 

Chalace

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It's Sin's obtaining DoubleSlash at such a low level, it just rips **** at level 16 xD but u can't really stop it because mobs hp/defence has to be low then.
Why is this an issue? I'm clearly missing something.
Different classes having different abilities, leveling at different speeds is kinda the point, no?

As long as things are balanced around 35+ I'm not seeing an issue here.
 

squall777

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What amazes me after nearly 20years of imbalanced servers with 3-4-5-6 classes noone ever thought about making a server with a single class with Tao HP and access to all spells.

- People could have multiple builds and decide on the go how they want to play.
Want to go level? Sure go on put your MC kit on.
Want to go boss hunting? Put your DC kit on.
etc.

- Some **** spells like FW and MagicShield could finally be removed with no cries.
- With server population being lowest than ever that could also help group hunting instead of waiting for your Tao mate to log on.
- Spells nerfs,buffs would annoy less people since if something is considered OP or UP

Surely it could fail but 100% of servers fail anyway one way or another so it's not like it will make a huge difference on the outcome but at least it will be slightly more innovative.
 

Seanofsmeg

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Different classes having different abilities, leveling at different speeds is kinda the point, no?

As long as things are balanced around 35+ I'm not seeing an issue here.

I agree with you some on that one. Agree all classes should have different leveling speeds and it should all balance out but..... if they have perks awarded based on catchup mechanics then they no longer need these as there is no catchup required otherwise they get an easy road early game and usually pretty decent late game also.
 

Pottsy

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Why is this an issue? I'm clearly missing something.
Different classes having different abilities, leveling at different speeds is kinda the point, no?

As long as things are balanced around 35+ I'm not seeing an issue here.

Well this is where it gets fun.

I have this same view. I've never judged balance on classes until I feel i've reached nearer the end game, or at least until all the spells have been gained.

But whatever is left of this community is straight into commenting within 2 weeks that class balance is off, or 'x' is broken or 'y' is doing too much damage etc. 2 Weeks :D because people want in my opinion, everything on a plate.

There are not enough hardcore players left in the mix where class balance can ever be seriously discussed and looked into for any server. You could have the end game perfect...but because all the casuals won't get there right away, you have to also make the journey perfect....which is just impossible.

This then results in the journey to end game being "balanced" and by the time certain classes reach the end, they're either too weak or insanely powerful lol.

Sin as the example is often nerfed early game because it kills too fast. Later game, because they drop like a sack of ****, they need to hit hard....but now they no longer do because you nerfed them for that Lv.10 player that was crying lol, so then you undo the change to re-balance the later game.
 

Piff1

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Why is this an issue? I'm clearly missing something.
Different classes having different abilities, leveling at different speeds is kinda the point, no?

As long as things are balanced around 35+ I'm not seeing an issue here.

That's the thing only some server get the balance right, sometimes sin's can smash to 44 nearly as fast as a wiz, other servers they get to 35ish and they're pretty slow with warriors getting CHM etc.
 

astrix

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3 heroes for me keep it simple. As most owners dont know how to deal with them damage , boss, levelling wise. I mean lets be honest there is so much they can counter vs other classes with high agil attack speed, pois, mobility have it all really.
But once become weak or not kitted as great as other high end sins you get people crying they cant compete with wars ect. Then the acc agility argument comes into play you really can go on and on on the pros and cons.
Archers simply for me have always been a no go. They've Killed a few decent servers as they was not dealt with properly skill / damage out put wise.

Also since were on the subject servers needs to be a decent med -highrate as people now days thinks every 1 has time for the low rates but when it comes down to it people die out due to level diff and for me personally i hate spending 12hours to get one level each to there own tho. but out of everyone i speak with on or about mir wants a med-highrate also as low rates to time consuming and feel not worth the grind any more. Ide say a good 80% want the same
 

Chalace

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What amazes me after nearly 20years of imbalanced servers with 3-4-5-6 classes noone ever thought about making a server with a single class with Tao HP and access to all spells.

- People could have multiple builds and decide on the go how they want to play.
Want to go level? Sure go on put your MC kit on.
Want to go boss hunting? Put your DC kit on.
etc.

- Some **** spells like FW and MagicShield could finally be removed with no cries.
- With server population being lowest than ever that could also help group hunting instead of waiting for your Tao mate to log on.
- Spells nerfs,buffs would annoy less people since if something is considered OP or UP

Surely it could fail but 100% of servers fail anyway one way or another so it's not like it will make a huge difference on the outcome but at least it will be slightly more innovative.

Welcome to my server... one day... maybe
Tho not quite as crude.

Edit: Thinking about it, someone must have done something along those lines at one point, surely.
.
 
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