Pretty speechless if i'm honest.

[mir2pion]

I asked about the top layer was because it seems like a good idea at first but after thinnking about it its use would be very limited unless in a very crowded map where lots of objects overlap and I know you can use the middle image in some situations to solve it...

I can't solve it, that is not an easy way, with my bridge. The shoreline is front object, placing anything over it results in conflict. I was hard pressed to even place it, so it didn't result in much wider damage. Only solution is to cut up the affected shoreline strips into tiles put them in existing or new library and rebuild that piece of shore on midlayer. I'd rather avoid customizing libraries because it makes it less attractive for sharing out if you need to work custom libs into your project.
I could place those surrounding shore strips on middle layer but them being strips, it won't work. BTW is looks as if that works on mir3 since mir3 maps have plenty image strips laid on middle layer.

I like to think of innovative things (this bridge is of course not one of them) on maps but it always runs into the 'doing it hard way'. Only way to enjoy mapping is if you add something to it, some touch, even if small. I don't dispute that view, that for most folks, it means nothing, or nothing after first seeing it. Myself I appreciated over the years precisely those touches on maps that didn't have to be there, the game would get by without them too. And usually you don't hear from those, who enjoy the maps. But can't buck the trend of teleport stones in SZs, direct porting to caves.

 

[Chalace]

I can't solve it, that is not an easy way, with my bridge.

Nevermind I found it.

The whole coastline is indeed on the front layer. Which makes no sense, and doesn't even look good in-game (weapons clip under, etc)
This is the first time I've seen such a blatant issue tho. Of course, I don't spend time editing the default maps as you do, so maybe there are more.

So yes, the only way you can fix this is with an additional layer on top with your limitations.
Tho you have backed yourself into this corner by not being open to adding/editing assets. (It's a 5-minute fix otherwise, cut up 3 or 4 strips and throw them into one of the lib's to place on mid is all it would have taken, we're talking maybe 20 tiles here?)

I get that you want to keep it default, but packaging a lib file with your maps, should you release them, really isn't a big deal. There's ample room in the base ones to not require any coding etc.

 

[mir2pion]

Well, they got around it mostly by laying fat back limit on those shores, still it shows in places if you are on the lookout for it, as you found. But if they did the shore with Smtiles, it would have been too laborious, maybe even for asian sweat shops because there are miles of that shore, on most euro maps.

Maybe if I kick myself to work with libraries, make the first step. Thing is, if I am not quite clear on the whole procedure, I don't like to proceed, at the same time I know the only way is to wade in and swim.

Makes me wonder if fixing the middle layer to display image strips in game properly would be as involving (coding wise) as adding in new layer. I mean, given it works in the editor. When it was discussed in the map editor thread, Far said something to the effect, that it should work, since it is the same code in game and in the editor. But thinking about it now, the editor seems to load the whole map at once, it is not loading tiles 'on demand', as they come into view in the editor as the client does it in game. That's why you can zoom out, because it is all there all the time. And zoomed out view is no fake, it still allows you to edit tiles. It could be the difference in the 'just in time tile loading' by the client vs the editor.

But on second thought, it don't see why that should cause different behavior.
Anyway, won't have time tonight to check out the new editor.

 

[Chriz]

Unless you circumvent the 2GB cap, you're not going to be able to make anything bigger. Once you start populating it is when the problems start.

I wouldn't advise anyone to make anything bigger than 1000*1000. I doubt I will again after this one at 1300*. (It took me a year to populate 3/4 of it the first time around)

I believe the only limiting factor is the dependencies on the managed directx libraries which will only work with a 32bit build. Porting to something like SlimDX/SharpDX for the DX engine should allow for a 64bit build.

@Akaras loving the changes

 

[Akaras]

I should really learn how to use SlimDX/SharpDX the last time I tried to start a project using either of them I failed because I am not good enough at coding projects from scratch to work out how to set the DX panels up lol I might give it another go soon as it was a long time ago and I have got a bit better since then

Makes me wonder if fixing the middle layer to display image strips in game properly would be as involving (coding wise) as adding in new layer. I mean, given it works in the editor. When it was discussed in the map editor thread, Far said something to the effect, that it should work, since it is the same code in game and in the editor.

If I remember right the issue is that it displays Image stips with the top of the image aligned to the top of the cell in the middle cell and the bottom of the image aligned to the bottom of the cell in the front layer? is that the issue you are talking about fixing? any mapping reason it might work like that on purpose? and do some maps have image strips already on the middle layer that will be messed up by changing how the middle layer draws the image strips?

I could take a look at adding the Top layer... I'm just a bit hesitant about trying to add it unless it is needed as it might complicate things with some people mapping in 3 layers and others mapping in 4

 

[Chriz]

I should really learn how to use SlimDX/SharpDX the last time I tried to start a project using either of them I failed because I am not good enough at coding projects from scratch to work out how to set the DX panels up lol I might give it another go soon as it was a long time ago and I have got a bit better since then

Zircon client would be a good reference point for SlimDX

 

[Skibadee]

cant wait till ya'll release your server so other people can steal your hard work in an instant

 

[Akaras]

Zircon client would be a good reference point for SlimDX

Ahh thanks yeah I didn't think of looking at that I'll download later and see if I can learn a few things from it

EDIT: I've downloaded and taken a quick look at the Zircon source seems like I should be able to edit what I need from the code and get something working for turning my future projects into SlimDX ones... thanks again for the info I had totally overlooked using Zircon as a reference

 

[Jamie]

Ahh thanks yeah I didn't think of looking at that I'll download later and see if I can learn a few things from it

EDIT: I've downloaded and taken a quick look at the Zircon source seems like I should be able to edit what I need from the code and get something working for turning my future projects into SlimDX ones... thanks again for the info I had totally overlooked using Zircon as a reference

Apparently SharpDX is faster than SlimDX but I am unsure if that's any factor, I never really liked SharpDX when I was comparing the two, (Might have a different opinion now though).

 

[Chalace]

If I remember right the issue is that it displays Image stips with the top of the image aligned to the top of the cell in the middle cell and the bottom of the image aligned to the bottom of the cell in the front layer? is that the issue you are talking about fixing? any mapping reason it might work like that on purpose? and do some maps have image strips already on the middle layer that will be messed up by changing how the middle layer draws the image strips?

I could take a look at adding the Top layer... I'm just a bit hesitant about trying to add it unless it is needed as it might complicate things with some people mapping in 3 layers and others mapping in 4

That's the one, yes.

How the change would affect current maps, I really couldn't say. If you could limit the change to only M2 & Shanda I think we're relatively safe (The fact they have this issue would suggest they aren't being used generally).

I have some middle layer objects using strips that work fine currently (like all the M3 sandy cliffs in this post) & just found a Sda 3-height one that works fine too, but a 2 height one that offsets. Off the top of my head, I can't recall the exact correlations, but some work and some don't.
(M3 doesn't actually have a mid-layer, it reads it as front anyway(?) so modifying that would be bad!).

I guess it depends on how much work it is to try. I know personally, this change would mean going through all my maps and rectifying purposefully offset objects (Not many, but finding them isn't easy). but at the same time, save having to cut up cliffs, etc still on my to-do list.

 

[Akaras]

I'll have to look into the differences between the two and see if I can get them working when I have a bit of time to play with the code... thanks for the info Jamie if it is slightly faster it might be worth looking into before I start with SlimDX

I'll have to look into why the middle layer draws it differently then Chalace... I actually thought it might be done that way for some reason

 

[Chalace]

I guess the logical way forward would be to have such changes only apply to a new map type. That way there is no risk to retroactively breaking anything. As there shouldn't be anything to 'fix' in the current maps.

Post automatically merged: Aug 8, 2019

cant wait till ya'll release your server so other people can steal your hard work in an instant

I don't want to go off on a rant, we've heard it all before. The underbelly of this community is nothing more than layer upon layer of immoral action justifications and greed. That will never change without consequences.

The only reason anything is still here at all is that there are a handful of people that genuinely want the community to survive. Unsurprisingly, none of them are the ones benefiting financially.

 

[mir2pion]

If I remember right the issue is that it displays Image strips with the top of the image aligned to the top of the cell in the middle cell and the bottom of the image aligned to the bottom of the cell in the front layer? is that the issue you are talking about fixing? any mapping reason it might work like that on purpose? and do some maps have image strips already on the middle layer that will be messed up by changing how the middle layer draws the image strips?

sorry if I am responding late. I am a bit busy at work.

The issue was the image strips would shift down by full length, so the top tile in the strip would go where the bottom tagged tile should be, leaving the rest of the strip displaying bellow the tag. I am puzzled that it works for Chalace with strips of some specific length. I will try to test it tonight if I get time.

Euro M2 maps all have only Smtiles on middle layer, no strips. M3 maps have image strips on middle layer when I checked in the editor recently but I didn't check if it displays properly in game. I haven't actually ever loaded M3 map on my local testing client but we have all played servers that employ M3 maps (like TPR server being last such example) and it works and I doubt server owners did move all strips from mid to top layer to fix those maps.

When you said that about adding new map type for the new top layer, you meant all existing maps, M2 and M3 would need to be reworked in some way, or 'just' the client code? Anyway, only reason I ask is that it is up to you to judge the work that might be involved in things like these, I don't have a clue and I don't want to be asking or push for something that would mean some major and or extensive overhaul.

the logical way forward would be to have such changes only apply to a new map type. That way there is no risk to retroactively breaking anything

If that's doable, that would be great.

Fixing the middle layer to place those image strips properly would go long way to what is possible to do with maps. Not only could I place that bridge but you could put a ladder against cliffs or cave wall to climb up (like in Bichon Dead mines where you have those two split levels and two means to go up and down - the steps and the sloping path.
If you tried to do something like that in a different cave that already doesn't have the official graphic to use, you could find something else to use, like a ladder (you put surrounding cliff section on middle layer, than put a ladder on front layer over it and you are done. Or a dead tree, a log to lay over a chasm to cross it. You could easily stick a jetty over shoreline and out to sea, to provide interesting fishing platform. Chalace could make player housing on sea too with a bridge connecting house platforms to shore, would be neat in my books. I have plenty ideas like that that don't 'cost much' but run into problems with layers.

I recall in GN euro mir days, there was a rumor supposedly coming from GN staff, that we will get different WT dungeon layout at night time, and traditional during daytime, automatically switching. I believe now it was a pipe dream, possibly mangled message from Koreans about upcoming patch, or outright hoax spread by fellow players.
But suppose we had those two front layers, front and top. Would it be at all feasible to tie layer appearance to game time, so at night time (or whatever else time), the Front layer would be turned off and the new Top layer turned on, so you could have that different maze layout (you'd need to kick pple outside I guess if you changed passages layout), or change to a differently looking gfx, and whatever other use pple would figure for it (like you kill a boss, the room changes appearance, would be cool, no?). No idea if that might be at all feasible.

 

[Chalace]

I recall in GN euro mir days, there was a rumor supposedly coming from GN staff, that we will get different WT dungeon layout at night time, and traditional during daytime, automatically switching. I believe now it was a pipe dream, possibly mangled message from Koreans about upcoming patch, or outright hoax spread by fellow players. Suppose we had two front layers, front and top. Would it be at all feasible to tie layer appearance to game time, so at night time (or whatever else time), the Front layer would be turned off and the new Top layer turned on, so you could have that different maze layout, even differently looking gfx, and whatever other use pple would figure for it. No idea if that might be at all feasible.

Assuming I read it correctly, Sanjian(?) has added monster scaling based on day/night cycle. So it shouldn't be too far fetched that a switch could be flicked to swap between 2 different maps based on time.

 

[iJam]

Fixing the middle layer to place those image strips properly would go long way to what is possible to do with maps. Not only could I place that bridge but you could put a ladder against cliffs or cave wall to climb up (like in Bichon Dead mines where you have those two split levels and two means to go up and down - the steps and the sloping path.

Heres an image to better understand mir2pion's issue.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

If you want send me the map and coords you want that bridge at, I can make tiles fairly easy.

 

[Akaras]

I just added the MiniMap creator to this map editor actually converted from my map editor with very few issues... well I had to edit a lot of the code but it was fairly quick and painless lol

here is a MiniMap I made from map 5 just to show it works

Image Preview

I'll add a few things tomorrow and do another upload so people can play around with the newest version

Post automatically merged: Aug 9, 2019

I decided to upload now as it seems to be working well and I have added most things I wanted today

Changes:

• Added MiniMap creator button
• Added back some of the buttons I removed previously as requested

Download

Let me know how well it works at saving the minimaps... not had it crash yet which is quite a good sign

 

[Chalace]

I'll have to sort some things out tomorrow. Re-save my map in the old format so that I can try it properly. (Can't open my maps with it atm)
Or maybe just start a new one.

I plan on having a decent mapping session over the weekend, should give a better idea of the new feel than just testing the basic functions.

 

[Akaras]

you got a new map type for your maps? I'll release the code soon so you can add your maps

was there anything else I said I would add? ...other than the middle/front toggle ... I feel like I'm forgetting something

Maybe I could add the tile cutter

 

[Chalace]

I should just remove the new type really, it's not serving any purpose other than I wanted to try it at the time. If anything it's inconvenient.
Just never gotten around to doing it.

All sounds good so far. Tile cutter would be a nice addition. Might start seeing people actually add things

 

[mir2pion]

If you want send me the map and coords you want that bridge at, I can make tiles fairly easy.

Thanks, if I don't dip into it by the time I am done with the map, might take a month or two or much less, l take you up for it. But really it is more procrastination on my part.

In that mid layer example you posted, the whole wall is shifted down with one strip shifted down by one tile and rightmost strip is one tile higher relative to the walls.
I recall now when I ran into this issue the first time with the water canal just visible at top in your editor screenshot, I also had some strips misaligned relative to the rest of them (and all of them shifted down). Seems to be deeper issue than just the whole thing uniformly shifted by the strip height. I believe your wall strips are all five tiles long.

BTW after I made the previous post plugging for the second front layer (Top) with potential use examples, I have another idea: some servers require you to fulfill some condition in order to unlock something. How about if on the standard euro map, you replace Stone temple in MW with a rock heap and put back limit on it so pple can't walk on it. Set some criteria for unlocking access to new temple and when it is fulfilled, map's Front layer automatically switches to Top layer on which Stone temple magically replaces the previous rock heap (the rock heap had back limit on it since you don't want to trap unsuspecting folks on it when the layer switches and temple appears on that place. But I think switching layers on the fly is probably just a pipe dream.

monster scaling based on day/night cycle

He did that in code I believe, the temple maze would be done by switching Front & Top layers which could be tied to any criteria besides day & night, as I outline here with ST example. Another example might be a Christmas event, if players collectively kill set number of mobs, the province map now with green grass will turn into snow covered one and with gift trees on it dropping boxes.

Maybe I could add the tile cutter

pls do, I am in favor to have those various utilities integrated in one place. How about integrating Library editor also? Library viewer doesn't seem to work for me, not sure why use viewer if you can view libraries with the editor...

Also put next download with your name on it, like 'Akaras mapeditor' to put your stamp on it


I fired up the editor first time tonight, the minimap version, and noted the selection in the libraries hold after returning to library back from map , can place objects from libraries very fast by hitting F1 & F5 for Wemade Mir2 and Map tab as an example. And simply toggling F6-8 to hide/show layers is heaven sent, dream come true. The old way of using mouse and dropping menu to show, then again to hide, was too cumbersome.

That feature Far once mentioned working in the editor, keys Z&X selecting previous and next tile respectively, was that really in the Xiyue editor, or maybe in iJam's? Really just selecting the next tile would be sufficient, not sure when you'd want to select previous one (maybe to list through tiles?). Since tiles are in sequences, simply jumping to the next one by keyboard key would be very handy for building objects from libraries. But that is probably not easy to implement.

Tested just several F keys tonight (will test extensively the weekend) but noted the ` key that should select None doesn't work (also is not reflected as choice in the menu as the other choices, btw it is very nice to have visual confirmation what you have selected in that menu via number keys.

` None -> not working, noted you had difficulty locating the key code. Maybe if the ` key proved troublesome, the None could be mapped to 1, which is currently unused (thought to reserve it for future top layer). Also thought of Escape but that is handy for dismissing Open dialog and likely other dialogs too, so not a good choice for None.

J Jump -> I forgot that shortcut.
Also if you could map the Jump dialog OK button to Enter key if you missed that suggestion I made inside the post just as a comment, probably you missed it.

Zoom on + & - buttons is very handy, I wonder if it is feasible to make a single step (direct) zoom size to fit the map to screen, whichever side is longer for maps that don't fit screen. Also one step 'zoom back to 100%' would be nice. This last could be mapped to * on numpad and if you made the 'fit to screen', it could be mapped to /
* Zoom 100%
/ Zoom to fit map to screen (if not hard to do)

Thanks for all that work, it is very much appreciated.